There was a religious quiz that atheists apparently do pretty well at. I ignored the story as I ignore most polls but atheists seem quite excited about it like it proves all believers are just stupid. Something they have long suspected. First of all, the quiz does not test any kind of deep religious thinking. It just tests whether you know a few big names. Things that might make you sound intelligent in a casual conversation. Atheists do tend to talk about religion a lot and learn a little about many faiths. Many people of faith avoid the topic of religion. This is not because they lack intelligence. It is really because they lack true faith.
How can people of faith be lacking faith? Because many people believe in Jesus but don't have confidence their faith will stand up to rational scrutiny. So they go through the motions. They are blessed by it. But they see it as something irrational. They don't want to talk about it. They don't want to dig into the facts behind it. They want to connect with God and they feel they do that somehow through their religion but there is no life there. They typically can't transmit their faith to their children. They don't grow in their faith. It either remains the same or it slowly declines.
People like this describe themselves as having faith. They self-identify as Catholic or Methodist or whatever. But they don't really believe it is true. They have bought into the idea that religious truth is somehow a lesser truth category than scientific or historical reality. That faith means you don't ask too many questions. You just believe and your try and live out the morals and hope you and your loved ones go to heaven. But that is not true faith. True faith means really believing it. That means knowing every question has an answer. Not being afraid that digging too deep will reveal something ugly or contradictory. Expecting that digging will reveal more about the beauty of God.
John Paul's first words as pope were "Do not be afraid". When asked later what we should not be afraid of. He said, "Don't be afraid of the truth about yourself." That is true faith. To want to know everything because you believe God's love is real and His revelation is reliable. There is no need to fear that somebody will expose my faith as irrational. That somebody will make me feel guilty about something and ruin my fun. Even radical, counter-cultural changes are not to be feared because the gospel is really true. Not some sort of pseudo-truth but true in every sense. Solid truth you can put at the very center of your life.
So why do so many Catholics do badly on religious survey's? Because their faith is very tentative. But we should not judge Christianity by bad Christians. We should judge Christianity by Christ. The question is not whether there are some Catholics who have a faith life that you would not want to emulate. The question is are there any whose faith is attractive to you? They are out there. When you find them then the many luke-warm Catholics just don't matter.
I enjoyed your post and believe you are probably one of those faithful people you are talking about. You have made an unusual & interesting affiliation change. You & I have much in common based on your words, but aligning yourself with the ritually bloated Ecumenical Church seems to show you are headed the opposite direction as my journey is taking me. Perhaps this amounts to simply different callings? I have met some godly people from Catholic backgrounds but my faith has taken me from their, to protestantism, and now my family and I rest in Christ alone. I believe the Church is Jesus' body and blood & that "churches" are more like little (or often very large) member only clubs. Always looking to scoop up new folks. In other words, they have very little to do with "the Church" and a lot to do with the same human ambitions that elevate other humans and even relics to different positions in a man-made hierarchy. The fact is there is on God our creator and Christ His son & King of Kings. We have been adopted as brothers of Christ and when we are adopted we become like natural children of God. This is the whole Gospel. The clubs and complex theologies are all tools of distraction designed to draw us away from our God. So I hope you are navigating the idolatry of Catholicism carefully. There is nothing man-made that is worthy of worship and we are to call no man on earth "father", for we have ONE Father, and He is in Heaven. Bless you brother Randy, I pray that God's protection will be upon you and His wisdom will continue to flow out of you.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment wind. I am sorry to hear you have some negative feelings about the Catholic church. I don't think it is different callings. Every Christian is called to be a part of the church Jesus founded regardless of your calling.
ReplyDeleteI believe the Church is Jesus' body and blood & that "churches" are more like little (or often very large) member only clubs. Always looking to scoop up new folks. In other words, they have very little to do with "the Church" and a lot to do with the same human ambitions that elevate other humans and even relics to different positions in a man-made hierarchy.
So what does this body and blood of Jesus look like? Are you rejecting all protestant hierarchies as well? They are certainly man made. But the first hierarchy was not. The apostles were appointed by Jesus. Was that hierarchy legit? If there was something like that around today would you accept it?
The fact is there is on God our creator and Christ His son & King of Kings. The clubs and complex theologies are all tools of distraction designed to draw us away from our God.
Theology is important. We cannot not do it. We have questions about faith and morals. We need answers. Simply declaring the question too hard does not work. It makes the faith unworkable. We cannot center our lives on a question mark. We end up living as if there was no God because we just don't know Him. So fellowships and teachings are important but we need to get with the right teachers and the right groups. God has provided that for us.
So I hope you are navigating the idolatry of Catholicism carefully.
I hope you are navigating the dangers of protestantism well. I appreciate your concern but the dangers are not what you think.
There is nothing man-made that is worthy of worship and we are to call no man on earth "father", for we have ONE Father, and He is in Heaven.
My, you have not gotten the basics down yet have you. Try this.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp
Bless you brother Randy, I pray that God's protection will be upon you and His wisdom will continue to flow out of you.
God bless you too.
"My, you have not gotten the basics down yet have you."
ReplyDeleteWould you like to edit this to something less outright offensive and something that actually contains information?
Secondly, from your link:
"He was using hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point) to show the scribes and Pharisees how sinful and proud they were for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers."
Hmmm.... Let me say it again:
"He was using hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point) to show the scribes and Pharisees how sinful and proud they were for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers."
I find this a terribly ironic statement coming from a post meant to support the Catholic Church's claim to be the "ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers." I'll be like Jesus here, but not beat around the bush, it's just wrong.
Sorry if you find my response offensive. That particular argument is not used by protestants who have interacted with serious Catholics. That is because it does not hold up when you consider the way the word "father" is used in the New Testament.
ReplyDeleteI am not blaming you for not knowing this. The biggest reason people have not run into serious Catholics is because there are not enough of us. That was the subject of the post.
I find this a terribly ironic statement coming from a post meant to support the Catholic Church's claim to be the "ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers." I'll be like Jesus here, but not beat around the bush, it's just wrong.
It is ironic. It is not wrong. There are two issues here. What authority is legit and what is not? Then, when authority is actually from God, how should it be exercised? Matthew 23 is about the authority of the Pharisees. Jesus says it is from God. That comes in the first few verses of the chapter. But then he goes on to say they are exercising it very badly. He says the titles are one thing that has been used badly. They have become a source of pride.
OK. Can this fairly be applied to the Catholic church? Sure. Popes, bishops, and priests need to exercise servant leadership. Their titles should not be a way to devalue some people. Those offices need to be associated with service and humility. Are they? No all the time. I think God has graced us with many humble leaders but pride is a constant enemy.
Well, I'll leave the "father" debate to a disagree. The way the Catholic church uses the word is precisely the context that Jesus was referring to, and not because I still haven't gotten "the basics" but because it's precisely the problem with the papacy and the man-made hierarchy that they impose.
ReplyDeleteHowever as you go on I would concede that the Protestant churches are every bit as ego prone. I suppose I'm not a proper Protestant either since I believe that I have one Father and He is in Heaven. I've never had much use for the hierarchy, and while you point out accurately that this is not unbiblical I believe the error comes in the implementation almost 100% of the time. A good pastor or even a good Christian in general will help point toward God, anything else is just fluff.
In the end Jesus says that the authority Pilot had over him was given by God and they used that authority to crucify Him. They used it wrongly. You see, this is an entirely secular example, but the same principle. The Roman centurion also understood these principles in a purely secular sense. However, the only real authority that comes from God is inescapable (by earthly means) anyway. As was the situation Jesus was in. The Pope is quite escapable as is any Pastor I've ever known. They have power because people give them power and if you can escape it is quite fine to do so assuming God has not told you to stay. God told you to stay and me to flee. There's no contradiction though, we all have different jobs to do and I certainly couldn't be doing what I'm doing now if almost any of my previous "bosses" whether Priest or Pastor had their way.
If you knew a bit more of my story you'd know that the last 20 years have taken me far beyond the basics. I've experienced churches in ways that make the Pharisees look good. Sure, I have managed to avoid crucifixion but I'm suspicious that maybe that is only because of modern cultural norms. Don't get me wrong, I've seen glimpses of good too, like an oasis in a desert.
I'm currently settled on never referring to "churches" as Church. I believe the two are virtually unrelated. Jesus demonstrated the Church in His lifetime. I don't recall an instance where He ever drew a contextually relevant parallel to buildings or human hierarchies. "The Church", "The Body", "The Vine" ... it was all much too big, much too spontaneous, and much too complex to fit into a building.
This is a new wine skin. People fleeing different churches will assemble at random, hear sermons at their lunch tables, choose to be with teachers because of their God given authority and not their Seminary given authority. It's happening every day, and very few churches get it. They're too busy counting last week's offering. I'm blessed to teach and be taught many days per week. Not in a big congregation, but 1 to 1, not in generalities presented with charisma and showmanship, but in specifics presented with first hand knowledge, compassion, and the Holy Spirit's discernment. It's a better way and it won't work to its full potential until churches embrace it. Until Pastors and Priests hand over the programs and plans in exchange for real relationships. Until they are humble enough to trade man-made authority for God-breathed. REAL relationships, Truth must always be REAL. Anything else is just bovine scatology.
I responded in a new post
ReplyDeletehttp://ephesians4-15.blogspot.com/2010/10/debate-with-wind-on-church-hierarchies.html