Note: I had a post on Rape Culture that some people found misleading so I took it down. This is another way to try and approach the same ideas.
People are complex. Sex goes deep into a person's psyche. So a question about sex can be very hard to answer. Sexual confusion is the rule and not the exception for people. There is a lot to think about. Short term sexual pleasure is always on people's minds. Then there is the effect on the relationship in question. Who else will find out? How will they react? How well do I really know this person?
We can think of a thousand things to think about but we very likely miss the most important ones. Sexuality goes deep into our heart and soul. We don't tend to grasp that well. We get that sexual abuse can hurt people in profound ways, but what is sexual abuse exactly? We can see that people who are under a certain age can't really give consent. But is age the thing? Isn't some level of self-awareness more important? When do we get there? How do we know?
You start to grasp that most people are quite ignorant of their own psycho-sexual situation. They are almost always ignorant of the sexual situation of the person they are hoping to have sex with. Mostly they don't care. People try and be nice and respectful and all that but they reach their limit pretty quickly. They want what they want. They don't want to deal with long term confusion. They pretend to respect you as a person but not fully, not when life get complicated. They want a girlfriend or boyfriend or maybe just a short term sex partner. What they don't want is an endless spritual mystery that will take a lifetime to contemplate. But that is what a human being is.
All the ways to try and fix consent fail miserably. They just don't take into account the nature of sex. Ultimately it is just another way of putting pressure on people. To make people feel like they have to consent to some sex just to be normal. The truth is that normal people are worth a lot more than society imagines. People talk about a rape culture but they don't get that the whole dating scene is about manufacturing consent. They talk passionately about the evils of explicit coercion but think somehow a system of implicit coercion is the answer.
This is where you see the wisdom of the Catholic idea of saving sex for marriage. Premarital sex risks all sorts of pain to achieve some very superficial pleasures. Then you add to that the benefits of celibacy. It is really the only rational choice. Marriage is the only place where men and women can embrace sex in all its facets and complexity and depth. You don't have to ask the price because you will pay anything and happily so.
"You start to grasp that most people are quite ignorant of their own psycho-sexual situation. They are almost always ignorant of the sexual situation of the person they are hoping to have sex with. Mostly they don't care."
ReplyDeleteDo you really think that most people don't care about whether their sexual partners really want it? I'm sure there are some people out there like this, but there are also a lot who are looking for a real relationship, and not just a hook-up
It is complex. They do care to some extent. They don't want to be a self-centered jerk. But for most there is a limit. They invest so much time and emotional energy and then they run out of patience. They want what they want and at some point they just want the person to deal with their own issues and give them what they want. Marriage is meant to be different. It is meant to be dealing with endless issues and emotions.
ReplyDeletewell, you may be right, it's hard to say, but I am definitely skeptical of that "most". I'm sure if I had daughters this is the way I would view things, but I'm just not sure how accurate it is.
ReplyDeleteI think it is accurate at a level. I think deep down inside most people want to do better. They want to be better lovers. Right now our culture discourages it. We do a lousy job of raising children to become good husbands and fathers or mothers and wives. We teach people to focus on their own short term desires. Again people have the design of God stamped deep in their hearts. We make it hard on them but they can find it.
ReplyDeleteMy point is the whole idea of consensual sex pushes them towards self. Here is the degree to which you need to concern yourself with the other person. Do that and every other thought can be selfish and you are OK. That is the message. Many don't fully believe it but practice it to some extent.
"My point is the whole idea of consensual sex pushes them towards self."
ReplyDeleteIf I am reading you right, your argument is basically that by trying to get consent you are being selfish. You have the guise of seeing if they are ready, but really you are saying "I want this". I could see how there is something to this. I could see how someone could use "getting their consent" as a way to pressure someone who isn't ready.
But where do you draw the line? I can particularly see this if people are just starting to date, what if they have been dating for quite a while? My wife and I dated for several years before we got married. At some point it is not coercion and is truly consent by both parties isn't it?
Also, even when you are married you need to get consent. Both people still need to be interested, so getting consent within a marriage is still a thing.
I have a feeling we have a few lines crossed here :) Let me know what you think
As a couple takes more and more time the dynamic gets more and more like marriage. Still as long as we have not married we are saying I want the right to open that can of worms and then walk away.
ReplyDeleteOnce you get closer to marriage the reasons for waiting change a bit. This one is not as strong but some others are stronger. One of these days I will write out a long list of such reasons.
Consent in marriage is a different thing. Even calling it consent is strange. It is more of a mutual decision-making. Married people make a lot of decisions together. We don't talk about consenting to buying a car. Why talk about it with sex?
It just shows how the language of consent is far removed from the language if intimacy and love. It is a language of using people and abusing people.
"As a couple takes more and more time the dynamic gets more and more like marriage."
ReplyDeleteI would definitely agree with that. For me, marriage was just a marker along the way. It's not like anything changed when we got married.
"Still as long as we have not married we are saying I want the right to open that can of worms and then walk away. "
Given the divorce rate, I would argue that this doesn't even change. But fair enough, you are saying people should at least pledge a lifelong commitment to one another before having sex. While there is an argument for this, I worry about people getting married for the purpose of having sex. How many people do you know who got married younger than they should have, at least partly because they didn't believe in sex before marriage? I definitely agree with you though that casual sex is generally a bad thing. I think it is much healthier in a long term committed relationship.
As to the consent in marriage thing, perhaps you are right. Consent doesn't feel quite right, and yet mutual decision making doesn't feel right to me either. I'm honestly not sure what word to use. Regardless, the transition from consent when you first start dating to...whatever it morphs into is a slow change to me, for it to happen the moment you get married is strange to me. Seems more like a gradual shift.
I hope I'm making sense, I fear my communication through text is somewhat clunky today.
I would definitely agree with that. For me, marriage was just a marker along the way. It's not like anything changed when we got married.
ReplyDeleteThat is another good reason to save sex for marriage. We want to make a fundamental change. We want to move from cautious discernment to unconditional commitment. That kind of change is not gradual by nature. It requires a decision point. So an big external change that corresponds to your decision point is helpful.
While there is an argument for this, I worry about people getting married for the purpose of having sex. How many people do you know who got married younger than they should have, at least partly because they didn't believe in sex before marriage?
You are always going to have people making bad choices. If they get married when they should not just for sex then what would they do for sex in another belief system?
This does go away to a large degree when you reject contraception as well. Then marriage means the strong likelihood children. That gets rid of the notion that marriage is just about sex.
As to the consent in marriage thing, perhaps you are right. Consent doesn't feel quite right, and yet mutual decision making doesn't feel right to me either. I'm honestly not sure what word to use.
I am not either. The emphasis on consent within marriage seems degrading to marriage. Sure there are cases where the language fits but those are the bad marriages. Our culture tends to only think about bad marriages when it discusses marriage.
Regardless, the transition from consent when you first start dating to...whatever it morphs into is a slow change to me, for it to happen the moment you get married is strange to me. Seems more like a gradual shift.
The gradual shift almost never happens. The consent model is so wrong it tends to destroy people. It can leave them scarred for life. It prepares them for divorce rather than for marriage.
A huge shift at the moment of marriage is strange but a wonderful sort of strange. It makes your wedding day huge.
I hope I'm making sense, I fear my communication through text is somewhat clunky today.
You are doing fine. I love the interaction. Thanks for being so open with your life. It sounds like you have been blessed with a good marriage. A good marriage is the closest thing we have to heaven on earth. A bad one is the closest to hell.
"This does go away to a large degree when you reject contraception as well. Then marriage means the strong likelihood children. That gets rid of the notion that marriage is just about sex."
ReplyDeleterejecting contraception seems very dangerous to me. Now the people who are foolish enough to get married for sex are also going to have children. Seems like a recipe for disaster. Also, for people who aren't foolish, wouldn't it be better to let people plan and have children when they are ready?
"It sounds like you have been blessed with a good marriage."
I definitely feel like I got lucky with my wife :)
rejecting contraception seems very dangerous to me. Now the people who are foolish enough to get married for sex are also going to have children. Seems like a recipe for disaster. Also, for people who aren't foolish, wouldn't it be better to let people plan and have children when they are ready?
ReplyDeleteIt is funny to hear you talk about rejecting contraception as a dangerous change. The pill was invented in 1959. Before that people accepted the link between marriage and sex. I don't recall it being a disaster. Is it dangerous? Great sex is meant to be dangerous! Safe sex is boring sex.
People can still plan when to have children. They just need to do it by self control and not by manipulating the sex act. The natural impulses to reproduce remain in place but the final decision is ours. We are free.
It seems humans need this extra impulse because populations that use artificial contraception tend to have way too few kids and go into decline. It is kind of a slow way of committing cultural or ethnic suicide.
I definitely think careless people having children is dangerous for society overall. Do you have any data to back up the idea that populations go into decline with the availability of contraception? That seems surprising to me.
ReplyDeleteLook at Germany. They have a fertility rate of 1.41 children per woman.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_fertility_rate
Obviously you need 2+ children per woman to maintain the population. So their population is in decline. But it is worse than that. Germany has a lot of immigrants, many of them Muslim. They have a much higher birth rate. So if you just look at ethnic Germans the birth rate is scary low.
The story is the same in many European countries and in some parts of the US (mostly the blue states). Major people groups that have shaped much of western society are disappearing due to low fertility rates.
Do you know how much of that is from availability of birth control though? It's a pretty hard question to answer, as birthrates are obviously affected by a large number of factors. It makes me think of Japan, you can see on that wikipedia list it is also pretty low, but I have read it is a cultural thing, many Japanese women are not interested in having a family. It is not because of the availability of birth control.
ReplyDeleteAre you serious? How can it not be from birth control? Japanese women are not interested in family. But why? Because they don't have to make that decision with their husbands every month. They don't have to talk about it at all. When you have to abstain even for a few days there is a built in incentive to review the decision not to have another child right now. You might decide that was a good decision and stick with it but the matter will cross your mind. Our bodies are built that way unless we mess with them.
ReplyDeleteMy understanding is that there is a large portion of women over there who are deciding not to get married at all. It's not that they are not having to make this decision with their husbands, in an attempt to avoid fairly widespread misogyny they are avoiding relationships altogether.
ReplyDeleteNot sure what a "large portion" would be. It is often said that celibacy is unrealistic. You are saying celibacy is common in Japan? Or are you saying "avoiding relationships altogether" means having sex outside marriage? The ladder would obviously be related to contraception. If it is the former I would say it is very interesting. Still there are still going to be a large number of marriages with very few children. Do you have a link with the details?
ReplyDeleteI know that without contraception you can get birth rates dropping to just about replacement rate. I am not aware of anywhere where it has gone significantly below replacement. No species will just naturally lose interest in reproducing. You have to really mess with the system like contraception does.
Unfortunately, I don't remember where I read that. (which probably means I should have brought it up, bad form on my part). But let's assume for the sake of argument that they are having sex outside of marriage and using contraception. I would argue that this option is preferable to forcing them into a marriage they don't want and producing children that they don't want.
ReplyDeleteThose are not the only 2 options. Either have sex outside of marriage or be forced into a bad marriage. The other two that jump out at me is to live a celibate life and to wait until a marriage comes along that you really want.
ReplyDeleteIf they don't want children they don't want marriage. If the don't want marriage they don't want sex. If they try and cheat and change sex so it is no longer ordered towards children and marriage then we distort a lot. You lose the sanctity of life. You also lose the ability to make bonds of love with other people. You make intimate bonds and then don't honor them.
Contraception always seems like a quick fix but humans are just not that simple. Just like consent seems like all you need. Except it does not work. No shortcut will work. The good news is the long way is an awesome way.
Both of your options amount to celibacy, at least for a while. And as you pointed out, that doesn't work.
ReplyDeleteSex is about making children, but it's also about pleasure. Ideally we can have all of it, but I think it is good that we can decouple those things. Obviously this is a point that we will simply disagree on :)
I didn't say celibacy does not work. I just said I would be surprised if a large number chose it especially in a non-Catholic nation. Sure self control is a struggle. Why is struggling such a bad thing? Lots of great things in life require some struggle. Why should being a great husband and father be easy?
ReplyDelete