The debate is elsewhere. Malakye's invited me to respond. His works are in green. Mine will be in black
"SUPERSTITIOUS, REVOLTING, BARBARIC, DEGRADING, INDECENT, PROFANE AND ABSURD"
1) C.H. Spurgeon was probably one of the greatest preachers who ever lived. He left such a spirit-filled paper trail, there can be no doubt he went straight to heaven on a direct line. Because my opponent is taking the position that John 6 refers to the Eucharist, I thought it apropos to mention that the very first sentence of one of Spurgeon's sermons begins with, "Our Lord Jesus did not in this passage allude to the Lord's Supper, as some desiring to maintain their sacramental superstitions have dared to affirm!" My feelings exactly. He continues...
"Understood literally, it is horrible and revolting to the last degree! That there are millions of people who accept so monstrous an error and believe in literally feeding upon the body of the Lord Jesus, is probably the highest point of profane absurdity to which superstition has yet reached. While we wonder that the Jews so misunderstood the Savior, we wonder a thousand times more that there should remain upon the face of the earth men in their senses not yet committed to a lunatic asylum who endeavor to defend such a dreadful error from Holy Scripture. Brothers and sisters...it is a gospel certainly more fitted for savages and madmen than for persons in the possession of their senses...[it is] absolute barbarism! We are not required, however, to believe anything so impossible, so degrading, so blasphemous, so horrifying to all the decencies of life!" (Sermon 1288, delivered 4/9/1876).
This is just terrible argument. I don't know how else to say it. Spurgeon is just asserting his interpretation is right and the Catholic one is wrong. He does not give any reasons. It is what we call begging the question. Then there are a bunch of insults thrown in. That is out of place in a discussion between Christians about what the Word of God means. So it is bad logic and uncharitable. I would like to offer a rebuttal to your argument but there is none.
It has certainly been my experience that protestants show huge confidence in the strength of their biblical arguments even when the arguments are not very strong. I have fallen for it. I have jumped to the conclusion that protestant arguments were much stronger than they are based on the widespread confidence I saw. It was only when I dug into things more deeply I realized the emperor had no clothes.
AN INFALLIBLE CHURCH ISN'T ALLOWED TO ERR
2) Before anyone calls Spurgeon over-dramatic, the Council of Trent said (in their decree on the Eucharist) that any metaphorical view of Jesus' words was, "satanic, godless, contentious and evil". How then can we determine whose righteous anger is justified? One way is to examine what the Roman Catholic Church says about the Eucharist under the magnifying glass of her claim to be infallible. To be infallible, Rome must not err while claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit. If Rome makes even one mistake while claiming to speak infallibly about the Eucharist, then Jesus no more gave the gift of infallibility to Rome then there is a man in the moon. This then would classify Transubstantiation as an "unfruitful work of darkness" which must be exposed (Eph 5:11).
BRINGING DOWN THE VATICAN GOLIATH
3) In the same way it took David to bring down Goliath with one stone, all it takes to bring down Transubstantiation is one word. That one, single, solitary word is, "truly". If it can be shown that the word "truly" has been used in a manner that is factually and indisputably incorrect, then the monstrous claim of infallibility must fall to the ground, and Transubstantiation right along with it.
Here is what I mean. Catholicism teaches that the Council of Trent was infallible (CCC 888-892). Trent announced they were being guided "day by day" by the Holy Spirit, (twice!) in their decree introduction on the Eucharist. They forbid anyone to even "dare" believe otherwise. The catechism quotes this council in #1376...
"Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly His body He was offering under the species of bread".
No, he did not say any such thing.
Let's unpack this statement. We notice that there are three distinct errors in this one sentence alone! Jesus did not "SAY" that he was "OFFERING" anything, let alone that the bread was "TRULY" his body. Trent's first error was the brazen lie of telling us Jesus said something, when he didn't.
You are finally sort of getting to a point. Sort of. You are objecting to the fact that the word used in the council is not the exact same as the word used in scripture? The last supper is in the context of the Passover so notion of sacrifice and offering is implied. Did Jesus use the word? He may have. If the council actually infallibly declared he used the word then it is easy to believe He did. Not all words Jesus used are recorded in scripture. Yet I don't think the doctrine of infallibility requires us to believe that. The Holy Spirit did protect the Council of Trent from error. Not so much in matters of technical detail but more in the theological teaching. For infallibility to apply to a specific detail then that detail must be stated quite emphatically.
Their second error declares Jesus offered himself in sacrifice right there at the dinner table in the upper room before he went to the cross. We are told that even though all eyes were fixed on him, he began to co-exist, simultaneously, in the bread and wine by some eerie, metaphysical process unknown to man. Trent teaches, "At the Last Supper, on the night He was betrayed [He] offered up to God the Father His own body and blood under the form of bread and wine..."
NO! Such words are a direct assault on the space/time dimension wherein God deals with us. In practice and in precept, Jesus offered his body, chronologically, only once (i.e., at the cross) and certainly not at the Last Supper, and definitely not at any Mass going on today.
Again you are just rejecting something by simply asserting it is wrong and not saying why. The crucifixion is an even that occurred in time but it is also an event that transcends time. The Passover meal was one act with Jesus' suffering and death. Without Jesus' decision to offer Himself on Thursday we would never be able to see Friday as sacrifice for sin. We could only see it as a Roman execution.
The Passover was also seen by the Jews as an event in history that transcended time. They really felt that God was delivering them from exile that night. The word they used to describe that concept is the same word Jesus used when He said, "Do this in remembrance of me."
The third offense was to shamefully put the word "truly" into the mouth of Christ at the Last Supper, where he did not "truly" affirm anything at all. No Bible on Earth records Jesus saying the bread was "truly" his body. With blood boiling in their veins in reaction to the Reformers, Trent was being guided by nothing more than their raw, unbridled emotions.
Have your read John 6 lately:
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, ywhoever believes has eternal life. 48 zI am the bread of life. 49 aYour fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and bthey died. 50 cThis is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it dand not die. 51 I am the living bread ethat came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give ffor the life of the world is gmy flesh.”
52 The Jews then hdisputed among themselves, saying, i“How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood lhas eternal life, and mI will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood nabides in me, and I in him. 57 As othe living Father psent me, and qI live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 rThis is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread3 the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus4 said these things in the synagogue, as he taught sat Capernaum.
You really need to try and understand what Catholics mean by infallibility before you try and disprove it. Every faith needs a final authority. It is either yourself or it is God. If it is God then how can I tell when God is giving me that final answer? I know you will say scripture but scripture can be interpreted many ways. I can pick the one that suits me. Even if I try and pick the one that is most likely God's truth I can make a mistake. Ultimately it is my own sinful, fallible self making the choice.
The question is whether we really want to know God's word. Not just convincing yourself you are right about the bible but really knowing God's word. Do you think your opinion and God's opinion are the same? As a protestant, I would never have said that but I actually did think I was pretty close. When God suggested to me I might be wrong about the papacy and Mary and some other things i really had trouble believing my previous opinions could be that far off. I did not have an issue with the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. John 6 is quite clear. Still infallibility was the center.
4) OBJECTION: Trent did not quote Christ. They were simply paraphrasing what he said.
ANSWER: Anyone who knowingly paraphrases is obligated to reveal their intention at the get-go to prepare their audience that what follows is not word for word. Otherwise, we are to, "Let your yes be yes and your no be no; for whatever is more than this comes from evil" (Matt 5:37). Trent did not do this and so they are, by definition, "evil" when it comes to infallibility in general, and Transubstantiation in particular. They gave no indication whatsoever that they were trying to capture the literal meaning of "This is my body" with a paraphrase! They simply assert that Christ "truly" said the bread was actually his body, and leave it at that. But by doing so, they are guilty of adding to the Text. "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee and thou be found a liar" (Proverbs 30:6, Deut 4:2, Rev 22:18).
By definition evil? What is your definition of evil? When a council of the Church does not comply with your arbitrary rules? When God speaks you can count of people being around to tell God He spoke all wrong. People do it with scripture. You do it with the Catholic church. Absolutely something I would expect with a truly infallible council.
Furthermore, the lack of quotes around what Christ allegedly "said" are, in fact, there by implication in the very same manner as anyone in the Bible who conveys what the Lord said---but with no quotes recorded around THEIR words. If the grandiose claim of Transubstantiation is on course, it should stand out like a ship in the night with the floodlights of Scripture to guide it without the need to misquote Christ. Based on the premise that, "God is not a man that he should lie" (Numbers 23:19), Trent is not free to teach that the Lord... "said"... the bread was "truly" his body to prove Transubstantiation is fact--- any more than I am free to report that he... "said"... the bread was not his literal body, to convey that Transubstantiation is false. Each of our respective cases must be based primarily on the biblical data without the need to put words in the mouth of our Savior so that the better argument is made manifest to all (1 Kings 18:24; Proverbs 18:17; 1 Cor 11:19).
You are begging a different question here. You are assuming that Tent should only speak based on biblical data. That is what is called Sola Scriptura. It is not a Catholic doctrine. So you can't complain when Catholics don't follow it. You also out yourself on the same level as the Church Father at Trent. You are not. You are a guy on the internet. They are the successors of the Apostles gathered together at the request of the successor of Peter. The shoudl speak with authority. You should speak with humility.
THE EXACTITUDE OF GOD
5) The sanctity and exactitude of God's word is endorsed down to the last "jot and tittle" (Matt 5:18). That being so, the Holy Spirit would never...no, not ever... inspire Trent to misquote Jesus, even just a "tittle". Recall that God tells Moses to simply speak to the rock (Ex 20:8-12) promising to make water flow out of it. However, Moses changes just one word in that command, and instead, strikes the rock. This seemingly insignificant one word change, results in Moses not being permitted to bring the people into the Promised Land. The comparison with Trent's one word modification--- and what their consequences will be on Judgment Day, should be obvious. For if mere fallible human teachers will be judged more severely than the rest of us (James 3:1), how much more so will those who claim to speak infallibly for God? The Bible says, "When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken" (Deut 18:22). The same principle applies here in evaluating the claim of infallibility with regards to the Eucharist. By adding just one word into the mouth of Christ where it does not belong, Catholicism stumbles, and is guilty of breaking all the laws of infallibility in just the same way as anyone "attempting to keep the whole law but stumbles at just one point, is guilty of breaking all of it" (James 2:10).
In John 21:22, we read of a rumor that was going around based on something Jesus supposedly said. But in the next breath, the Text reports that he did not actually say that at all. It is conclusive therefore, that I am in perfect harmony with the Spirit of Truth who is in favor of what Jesus actually said, rather than what he supposedly said.
Having taken the Lord's advice to, "investigate, search out and inquire thoroughly" (Deut 13:14), I conclude the gift of infallibility is a sham and a hoax, and thus I would argue that Transubstantiation, as well as the entire Roman Catholic faith should be rejected, per Deuteronomy 18:22 and Jeremiah 23:30-40.
It is promised in those passages that all false prophets who recklessly wag their tongues by asserting, "The Lord says", (when the Lord did not say), will be swiftly cast out of his presence (cf. Jeremiah 14:14, 23:16-21). Ultimately, there are only two choices. Either Jesus was speaking literally in John 6 and the Last Supper, or he was speaking metaphorically in those places. Based on the fact that the RCC has told us something..."infallible"...about God which is incorrect (Job 42:7), there is no other option but to dismiss the Catholic view and accept once and for all, that Jesus had no intention whatsoever for anyone to consume his physical anatomy.
You do like to go on and on about nothing. Is this the best you can come up with in opposition to the Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist? Really? The statement you keep harping on is not even all that important. I have read many debates on this topic and I am not all that familiar with it. Now if you were talking about the words of John 6 that I quoted or perhaps the words, "This is my body" which Jesus said then I could see spending a lot of time on a few words. These? No.
6) The metaphorical "eucharist onion" that we're dealing with here has an outside layer of skin, "describing distinctly by metaphor the drinkable properties of faith" (says Clement of Alexandria). "Faith, which is the flesh of the Lord", says metaphorical Ignatius, shows that eating flesh and drinking blood is simply a mode of expressing one's faith that, "The word was made flesh and tabernacled among us" (John 1:14), not that he tabernacles in bread and wine for us to eat. When we peel back the layer of that onion, pungent fumes reveal that, "the drink is the word of knowledge [that] Christ...suffered according TO the flesh", says Origin, not that we are to actually eat his flesh. As Augustine said, "To believe [in his flesh and blood achievement] is to eat the living bread. He that believes, eats"...
You need to understand that the early church fathers interpreted scripture on many levels. So they could interpret a passage metaphorically without denying it was literally true. They did that with John 6. They never denied that the obvious literal interpretation was true. It was obviously those present heard. There were 3 groups who reacted to Jesus' words. All took him literally and Jesus never corrected them. You have the Pharisees, the faithful disciples and the disciples who leave Jesus over this doctrine. Especially the last group you would assume Jesus has a responsibility to clarify his words with them if they are leaving over a misunderstanding.
ANSWER: Who cares! The point is that the Protestant position has a pedigree that did not just pop up in the 16th century.
Actually No. There was nobody who denied the real presence for over 1000 years of Christian history. It was not as late as the 16th century. I think it was first suggested in the 11th. Still that is a long time for all of Christendom to believe something you ridicule as stupid and evil and whatever else.
When we finally cut to the core of the onion, we smell the strong odor of metaphorical usage regarding eating and drinking in the Old Testament as well, to which we now turn.
7) To suppose that the Savior means for us to consume his physique, is simply out of sync with the biblical precedent of "eating God" in a metaphorical sense. "Hearken diligently to me and eat" (Isa 55:2) is obviously metaphorical. The same goes for, " Oh taste and see that the Lord is good"(Psalm 34:8). The same goes for he being the "Fountain of Living Waters" (Jeremiah 2:13). The same goes for, "everyone that thirsteth, come ye to the waters...and draw water out of the wells of salvation" (Isaiah 12:3, 55:1; cf. Psalm 42:1, 63:1). The same goes for when Israel, "drank of that spiritual rock that followed them and that rock was Christ" (1 Cor 10:4). God quenched their thirst in the wilderness, splitting rocks and causing streams of water to flow out (Psalm 78:15-16). However, the rock was not literally Christ, just as the bread was not literally his body. They "drank" from their spiritual Rock, by faith, who was Christ supplying their need. Today, we "drink" the supply of all his promises, by faith (John 7:35-7). Today, we "taste the kindness of the Lord" , by faith (1 Peter 2:2-3). Today, we "drink the pure milk of the word", by faith (1 Peter 2:2). Today, we all, "drink into one spirit" by embracing all of his benefits, by faith (1 Cor 12:13).
All these scriptures point to the Eucharist. OK, some that are just about water really refer to baptism. The point is sacramental imagery is used all over the place. It does not mean the Eucharist is not real. It actually fits with a sacramental spirituality. Even putting the words by faith in bold does not mean what you think. We come to Christ in the Eucharist through faith. This is not something apart from being saved by grace through faith. It is part of how we receive God's grace through faith.
That is 7 points. I know you made 16. I just found it long a repetitive. So I quit. If you want to pick up on a few points in the remainder I can respond.
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