tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post5543964342805126148..comments2024-03-01T10:10:40.165-07:00Comments on Speak the Truth in Love: Schism and HeresyRandyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-49608939965151491732012-04-12T09:21:20.663-06:002012-04-12T09:21:20.663-06:00Catholics do convert in huge numbers but that is a...Catholics do convert in huge numbers but that is a different dynamic. What happens is they run into another teacher or another community they think is closer to God. That assumes they are seriously seeking God outside of themselves. Not a typical liberal thing to do. Many ex-Catholic protestants end up being quite conservative. <br /><br />As far as the Cardinal Dolan/Sister Keehan thing goes. Nobody was yielding or defying. They were talking to a pollster. Most are not willing to sacrifice much for any church leader. The ones that are are the only ones that matter. They tend not to be liberal. <br /><br />Would liberal Catholics pull their kids out of Catholic schools or stop self-identifying as Catholic if a few liberal leaders were excommunicated? I doubt it. Liberals don't care about any leaders. They follow the culture. Who needs leaders to do that?Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-46934987581001199402012-04-11T17:08:12.767-06:002012-04-11T17:08:12.767-06:00Hi Randy. Good to see you back.
I don't k...Hi Randy. Good to see you back. <br /><br /><b> I don't know if that many liberal Catholics would ever leave. They tend to threaten to leave a lot but never actually do it. When they do they don't often join another church. They just drop out. </b><br /><br />Actually Catholics do convert out in huge numbers, the largest of any major group in the USA. I wrote a post on this a few years back <a href="http://church-discipline.blogspot.com/2009/07/michael-bell-on-inflows-and-outflows.html" rel="nofollow">Michael Bell on inflows and outflows</a>. <br /><br />As far as never do... remember this is a hypothetical involving a crackdown that hasn't happened. The question is what would happen if there did a few thousand excommunications targeting liberals. I think we got a taste of this while you were away with Sister Carol Keehan and Joe Biden vs. Cardinal Dolan. Basically we had a debate about:<br /><br />a) The facts of healthcare law.<br />b) What actions were morally permissible with respect to acting as an accessory to sin in the case of birth control. <br /><br />They openly disagreed issue and over 1/2 the Catholic community sided with her. When they were unified, prior to the compromise they had over 80% support Catholics. Liberal Catholics were willing to openly defy Cardinal Dolan but yielded to Sister Keehan. I think that's worth noting.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-27301331031013512832012-04-11T16:36:04.062-06:002012-04-11T16:36:04.062-06:00I don't know if that many liberal Catholics wo...I don't know if that many liberal Catholics would ever leave. They tend to threaten to leave a lot but never actually do it. When they do they don't often join another church. They just drop out. Like they sense something holy about the Catholic church that they can't find anywhere else. <br /><br />Sometimes they are in positions of power in Catholic institutions. Then they have a lot to lose if they go to another church. They almost never do. They don't go and their superiors almost never force them out. Are they being virtuous because they are avoiding schism or are they being cowardly?Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-16501528148700190792012-02-23T11:32:32.301-07:002012-02-23T11:32:32.301-07:00There are lots of examples of theological errors b...<b> There are lots of examples of theological errors being fixed. But schisms are another matter. How often are schisms healed? Even when the reasons for the schism are long forgotten they tend to be very hard to fix. So how did we get so focused on heresy to the point where we completely ignore schism? </b><br /><br />Protestants more or less consider schism a positive thing. Sure they play some lip service to opposing schism, but in practice this means that they don't want people to not break from churches without at least a pretty good reason. <br /><br />Catholics on the other hand do fight schism where it counts. We are all discussing American Catholics and birth control. If you look at the behavior of the Vatical leadership with the American leadership on these social issues they have been slowly making them more conservative and avoiding enflaming the situation with Catholic liberals more than they think they absolutely have to. This has frustrated Conservative Catholics, but I think it is fair to say that the Vatican leadership has been putting their money where they mouth is in not creating a schism. <br /><br />A few thousand excommunications and there would be something like an "American Catholic church" with 20 million members and there would be a full blown schism. I know there is a church that calls itself the American Catholic church but it has a few thousand members at best), not a few tens of millions. <br /><br />Whether the vatican leadership can maintain conservative doctrinal unity and avoid schism I don't know. I can assert though they are trying really hard, and living out this teaching that schism CCC 817 and not repeat the mistakes the church make that led the Reformers (in large numbers) to feel they had no option but to setup an anti-church. This one Catholic conservatives can pat yourself on the back for living the teaching.CD-Hosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00304535091189153224noreply@blogger.com