tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post4622645269727516189..comments2024-03-01T10:10:40.165-07:00Comments on Speak the Truth in Love: Worst Possible Exegesis - DiscussionRandyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-74209843226952356102014-06-20T19:00:27.931-06:002014-06-20T19:00:27.931-06:00Why is this so outrageous? Is is pretty obvious hu...Why is this so outrageous? Is is pretty obvious humans have progressed morally. You keep saying that is inconsistent with the existence of God. Catholicism says No. God reveals moral truth over time. If we obey one thing He moves us to the next thing. He does not just dump the fullness of truth on us all at once. Some would say that is what the bible is. Those people would not be Catholics. <br /><br />So faith becomes a matter of constructive doubt, logic, evidence and reason. We have more than just empirical data to base it on. We also have revelation that has to fit. Yet the questions are much more abstract. We can know we are right based on sacred tradition. If we go down the wrong path the church will correct us. Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-76363428672322164692014-06-20T14:32:12.000-06:002014-06-20T14:32:12.000-06:00Moral advances are waiting for us to find them!!!!...Moral advances are waiting for us to find them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????? This is the most outrageous and alarming thing by far that you have said yet. You have made the argument that things take time and you have justified changes in the church. However there shouldn't need to be changes or updates on morality if it is directly from god! If we are still learning how do we know if we are wrong about something today? That's the problem and what makes it worse is that religion doesn't welcome open discussion about how to interpret the bible or whether we have interpreted something wrong or not. Of course atheists are not immune from thinking they have all the answers but its not integral to the reason and science they subscribe to, while for theists it is. People like to say that science and religion can live side by side, I used to be one of those people, but now I don’t think it can. Science is a discipline of investigation and constructive doubt questing with logic, evidence, and reason to draw conclusions. Faith by stark contrast demands a positive suspension of critical faculties. Science proceeds by setting up hypothesis ideas or models, and then attempts to disprove them. So a scientist is constantly asking questions, being skeptical. Religion is about turning untested belief into unshakeable truth through power of institutions and the passage of time. <br /><br /> <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-13611170400655945932014-06-20T12:46:49.820-06:002014-06-20T12:46:49.820-06:00"You man think blind faith is virtuous"
..."You man think blind faith is virtuous"<br /><br />I don't believe that. Faith must be purified by reason. Reason must be purified by faith. They must work together or neither is of much use.<br /><br /><br />"The danger in faith is that it lets imperfect humans think that they have all the answers when obviously we don't. "<br /><br />I don't think that is because of faith. I think it is because of pride. Atheists are not immune from thinking they have all the answers.<br />Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-82147197579919528312014-06-20T12:42:41.288-06:002014-06-20T12:42:41.288-06:00"ok well then why Catholicism and not any oth..."ok well then why Catholicism and not any other for of Christianity"<br /><br />Catholicism is the original Christianity. It goes back to Jesus. The rest all broke from the Catholic church at some point. We believe Jesus got it right the first time and no new church is needed or permitted or wanted. That is more consistent with believing Jesus is God then believing Luther or Calvin or whoever had to fix the church of Jesus. <br /><br />"How are we to know the church truly is inspired by god?"<br /><br />We need to look at Jesus. Look at the church. Look at their claims. Are the claims madness? Are they deceptions? Is there a grace and a holiness there? Yes, we subject Jesus and the church to rational scrutiny but at the end of the day it is the beauty that draws us. <br /><br />"Certainly not after they supported slavery for centuries."<br /><br />You can ridicule Pythagoras for not coming up with calculus. It seems obvious to us now. Things take time. The good news is that new moral advances are waiting for us to discover them. If the Catholic church spoke the last word on morality 2000 years ago then it would be quite boring by now. <br /><br />Would you even know slavery was immoral without Christianity. The idea that every human person has great dignity is not obvious. Many of the abolitionists were Christian. Sure many of those who fought to keep slavery were as well. Still the question really is only raised in societies strongly influenced by Christianity. <br /><br />It takes time for mankind to give up its sin. God could force us but He does not. He waits for us to come to those conclusions on our own. Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-63477827725622161962014-06-20T09:48:04.036-06:002014-06-20T09:48:04.036-06:00I respond to this in a new post.
http://ephesians...I respond to this in a new post. <br />http://ephesians4-15.blogspot.ca/2014/06/evolution-and-religion.html<br /><br />BTW, thanks for all the interaction. I quite enjoy it. God bless you. Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-52910806040398307592014-06-20T09:13:30.512-06:002014-06-20T09:13:30.512-06:00You man think blind faith is virtuous, after all w...You man think blind faith is virtuous, after all what harm is it to believe in Christ? I agree it seems benign. However its not proof for Christ's existence any more than a billion Muslims is proof for Mohammed's. The danger in faith is that it lets imperfect humans think that they have all the answers when obviously we don't. even according to you under the council of god himself we are still understanding how to interpret the bible. I think we could better on our own. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-45416592786971071152014-06-20T09:10:38.172-06:002014-06-20T09:10:38.172-06:00ok well then why Catholicism and not any other for...ok well then why Catholicism and not any other for of Christianity. How are we to know the church truly is inspired by god? Certainly not after they supported slavery for centuries. You can say they condemned it all you want. If they still did it for hundreds of years, THAT DOESNT COUNT. What good is the bible as a moral code if it could take nearly a millennium to get rid of something as heinous as slavery!?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-29254000730184023042014-06-20T08:38:26.304-06:002014-06-20T08:38:26.304-06:00"There isn't a single bit of proof to bel..."There isn't a single bit of proof to believe in Christianity over any other religion"<br /><br />That just is not true. The miracles of Jesus were really the only reason to take Jesus seriously, especially after he died. The fact that many people did take him very seriously very soon after his death is pretty much undeniable. Why? Why follow a guy who had a few nice teachings? The Greeks had philosophers. The Jews had Rabbi's and even prophets. Why not just say He was one of those? That question is not hard to answer for other religious figures. Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-67840472150004736792014-06-20T08:22:56.043-06:002014-06-20T08:22:56.043-06:00"The bible can be used to justify any cause. ..."The bible can be used to justify any cause. It cant be the word of god."<br />Almost agree. I would add "without some solid guidance on how to interpret it." That is what Catholicism has that protestants don't. Often protestants get the right interpretation but they don't know why thye prefer it over one someone such as you suggests. The answer is tradition but they don't admit it. Catholics admit it and make it more precise and consistent. Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-4101765019496578062014-06-20T05:47:56.291-06:002014-06-20T05:47:56.291-06:00this is just a small example of things that are ea...this is just a small example of things that are easy to see say the opposite things. in reality ther are millions of ideas and examples in the bibles that are also contradictory. Everything from as you pointed out saying slavery was bad, to endorsing it. From giving the message of doing unto others as you would have done unto you, to the story in Judges 19:34 where a man offers his daughter be reaped in lieu of harming his house guest. The bible can be used to justify any cause. It cant be the word of god. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-87576436934557654712014-06-19T13:00:49.702-06:002014-06-19T13:00:49.702-06:00Children need to believe everything their parents ...Children need to believe everything their parents tell them. On average, the rule of thumb, believe what your parents tell you, is a good rule of thumb for a child, because in a world in which wild humans lived, children could not afford to learn for themselves what to do, and what not to do. You can’t learn from experience not to bathe in the river because there might be crocodiles, you have to believe your parents who say it’s dangerous to bathe in the river. You can’t be programmed in advance with all necessary knowledge, but the rule of thumb is programming in advance that is designed to cope with whatever knowledge, whatever information, whatever statements your parents give you. And that kind of programming is automatically vulnerable to parasitic information, to mental viruses.So a brain which is designed to believe statements like “Don’t bathe in the river because of the crocodiles!” can’t help believing information like “Sacrifice a goat at the time of the full moon to appease the gods.” How can the child tell the difference between those two? Bathing in the river you’ll be eaten by crocodiles, if you don’t sacrifice a goat the gods will get you. It’s the equivalent to the moth and the candle flame argument. Given that children have that kind of brain, it’s almost inevitable that they will pick up some false information along with the true information. And once that false information has been picked up and believed, there’s no reason it can’t be passed on to the next generation and therefore the next and the next, and so what you would expect to find, and do find, is that beliefs like “sacrifice a goat at the time of the full moon” are passed down from generation to generation. The beliefs themselves are always different in different areas, as you would also expect. It is entirely arbitrary what that information is, the point is you believe it because you’ve been told it by strong authority, and you pass it onto your children with equally strong authority, and so on<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-77038314541930661752014-06-19T13:00:23.372-06:002014-06-19T13:00:23.372-06:00religion is widespread I agree, and A Darwinian fa...religion is widespread I agree, and A Darwinian faced with something which is ubiquitous in a species naturally starts to wonder, what is the Darwinian survival value of that thing , and so the fact that religion is universal in all cultures – not in all individuals but in all cultures – should lead us to ask that question. And I think there’s got to be, in some sense, an evolutionary advantage – although not necessarily to religion itself. We need to rephrase that question, as we often need to rephrase questions about Darwinian survival value. The question should be, “What is the Darwinian survival value of having the kind of brain which manifests itself in religion under some circumstances?” – under some cultural circumstances, in this case. A helpful analogy is moths flying into candle flames. It’s tempting to ask what is the survival value of suicidal behaviour in moths, but that’s the wrong question. Instead what we should ask is, “What’s the survival value of having the kind of brain which, when there are candles about, causes moths to fly into them?” Now in the wild state, when the moth’s brain was being naturally selected for, there weren’t any candles, and if you saw a bright light in the middle of the night it pretty well had to be a celestial object. It could be a firefly or something like that, but it was most likely to be the moon or a star, or, in a day-flying insect, the sun. At optical infinity, when light rays are travelling in parallel, those rays provide an excellent compass. And it’s well known that insects use light rays as a compass. They maintain a fixed angle, let’s say 30 degrees, to a source of light. Well, if you maintain a 30 degree angle to the moon’s rays, that’s fine, you go in a straight line. But if you maintain a 30 degree angle to a candle’s rays, you’ll describe a neat logarithmic spiral straight into the candle and burn. So, now we have rephrased the question. The question is not, “What is the survival value of killing yourself, if you’re a moth?” the question has become, “What’s the survival value of maintaining a fixed angle relative to light rays?” And now we’ve got a sensible answer. In the case of the candle it’s just a mistake.Well now, what’s the equivalent of the candle flame explanation in the case of religion. I think it might be the following.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-81799816512659291232014-06-19T12:58:03.409-06:002014-06-19T12:58:03.409-06:00the fact that religion grows isn't compelling ...the fact that religion grows isn't compelling at all. Anyone can see that it mostly only is passed down by parents. ANd actually that should be the alarming part. Why am I any more likely to believe any of the miracles that jesus allegedly did than I am to believe that Mohammed body shot up to heaven when he died? You can say they are different all you like but they are both selling the same thing, believing something for which there is no proof for. There isn't a single bit of proof to believe in Christianity over any other religion. You can say the story is more compelling but then why is there BILLIONS of people who subscribe to their religion? You really think that you are Christian because for you its more compelling and all of the people around the world that follow the religion they were brought up in are simply turning the blind eye to the real truth? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-42969907318298602862014-06-19T10:34:22.229-06:002014-06-19T10:34:22.229-06:00As I pointed out before society morally progresses...As I pointed out before society morally progresses and the men leading religion follow along. This is again a quote from an article on Catholic answers. <br /><br />"Jehovah’s Witnesses will respond that the Watchtower is not acting as a prophet but is “still learning.” However, not only does this contradict previous Watchtower claims to being “God’s prophet,”[13] it also leads to a simple yet intractable problem: if the Watchtower is “still learning,” why trust anything it teaches now? If God were really guiding the Watchtower, then why would he allow his “spirit-led” organization to lead so many people into error about the end of the world? The simplest answer to these questions is that men, not God, guide the Watchtower, and so it should not be trusted with our eternal salvation."<br /><br />Just like here the simplest reason that slavery would go from practive to condemned is certainly not that the god really is leading the church. Otherwise why would god allow this "spirit lead"church to lead so many people into err? Its the same dilemma and the simple answer is exactly the same. If you can see the parallel here I am at a loss. We aren't talking about a short period of time where slavery was not only accepted but practiced in the church. We are talking about centuries. Do you really want to say the church discerned it as wrong!!!!!!? Unbelievable. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-90463768700197517282014-06-19T07:54:30.500-06:002014-06-19T07:54:30.500-06:00If you want to know the history you should read th...If you want to know the history you should read this:<br /><br />http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/POPSLAVE.HTM<br /><br />The point is this is exactly what development of doctrine looks like. For a long time there was bad practice. There was no firm teaching on either side of the question. Then the church's statements start to fall consistently on one side and they get stronger and stronger. Does that mean the practice stops instantly? No. Slavery continues today. Still the church, led by the Holy Spirit, discerns that is is wrong.<br /><br />Was it wrong before that? Sure. Yet human society was not ready to face it. Jesus said the Old Testament divorce law was there because of the hard hearts of the people. Marriage was meant to be forever from the beginning. So God sometimes even regulates a lesser good because He knows we are not ready for the fullness of truth. Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-55664040674620391152014-06-19T07:41:29.806-06:002014-06-19T07:41:29.806-06:00Islam is a very different story from Christianity....Islam is a very different story from Christianity. You do need to dig into both if you have questions. It is obvious you have not because you equate them so easily. Islam depends a lot more on the sanity and honesty of Mohammad. Quite frankly you look close at him and both are easy to question. Not so much with Jesus. Jesus had disciples who saw his miracles, saw the resurrection, eventually did their own miracles and faced their own martyrdom. Islam is explainable by its early military and political success. Christianity was illegal for centuries and still grew. Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-30819420608721041292014-06-19T07:15:48.650-06:002014-06-19T07:15:48.650-06:00Its clear!? Thats just another contradiction a wa...Its clear!? Thats just another contradiction a way to justify either cause. Before slavery was ok now its not. You must see that!? Whether or not the magisterium or the popes are inspired by god <br /><br />1.For many centuries the Church was part of a slave-holding society.<br />2.The popes themselves held slaves, including at times hundreds of Muslim captives to man their galleys.<br />3.Throughout Christian antiquity and the Middle Ages, theologians generally followed St. Augustine in holding that although slavery was not written into the natural moral law it was not absolutely forbidden by that law.<br />4.St. Thomas Aquinas, Luther, and Calvin were all Augustinian on this point. Although the subjection of one person to another (servitus) was not part of the primary intention of the natural law, St. Thomas taught, it was appropriate and socially useful in a world impaired by original sin.<br />5.No Father or Doctor of the Church was an unqualified abolitionist.<br />6.No pope or council ever made a sweeping condemnation of slavery as such.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-57761041431980436082014-06-19T06:25:32.632-06:002014-06-19T06:25:32.632-06:00well then at the end of the day all if have is a f...well then at the end of the day all if have is a few different men telling me that they have the word straight from god. For you personally why is it Christianity over say islam? Can you really say its because its seems more true to you? Do you really think that if you weren't somewhere else or to different parents you would believe as you do today?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-38077711057658096202014-06-18T15:47:22.336-06:002014-06-18T15:47:22.336-06:00"No one ever disagreed on slavery until way a..."No one ever disagreed on slavery until way after the bible was written"<br /><br />Did you read the book of Philemon? It is only 1 chapter long. St Paul does suggest this slave, Onesimus, should not longer be a slave. The principle is clear. Slavery is problematic. <br />http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Phile+1&version=NRSVCE<br /><br />"That the magisterium and the catholic church is no different than the watch tower in the Jehovas witness, its guided by men."<br /><br />Sure, except that Jesus picked the first apostles. The first watchtower members were picked by their founder, Charles Taze Russell. Jesus can start such an organization because He is God. Russell? Not so much. Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-83584288710626083612014-06-18T15:35:43.418-06:002014-06-18T15:35:43.418-06:00I didn't say God was ever a rapist. I said God...I didn't say God was ever a rapist. I said God allows the effects of sin to play out in society. Rape is one of those effects. God does not shield us from that horror. We chose the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We get to know good and know evil with everything that goes with it. Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-30272507405150243392014-06-18T15:27:32.982-06:002014-06-18T15:27:32.982-06:00Is God's will knowable? Can we find in all the...Is God's will knowable? Can we find in all the religions something solid that we can embrace as true? It comes back to Jesus. He claims to be that thing. If you accept that then you have to accept that he has something to tell us even today. If He is really God then modern society should not make Him obsolete. So what does that look like? Starting with the bible is a mistake. You need to start with Christian tradition and the church. What have Christians always believed? <br /><br />If you don't go there then you just end up saying some nice stuff about God and Jesus and assuming that whatever we already think is pretty much what God thinks. Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-55841887638027193902014-06-18T15:18:27.485-06:002014-06-18T15:18:27.485-06:00I believe the bible can be interpreted in a lot of...I believe the bible can be interpreted in a lot of different ways. That is true for those who believe it is true and are looking for life direction. It is also true for those who believe it is false and are looking for contradictions. It is not that they can't be resolved. It is that some people choose to read them in a technical, literal sort of way that leads to a contradiction. Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-38158626348510689292014-06-18T14:30:22.144-06:002014-06-18T14:30:22.144-06:00No one ever disagreed on slavery until way after t...No one ever disagreed on slavery until way after the bible was written, that's why it doesn't say anything to the contrary in the text. That's why its obvious the bible isn't inspired from god. Indeed, how clear would scripture have to be? Instead of trying to make the bible fit what we want it to say, then if you were a true believer you would be seeking out that which could truly be the word of god. That the magisterium and the catholic church is no different than the watch tower in the Jehovas witness, its guided by men. You would have me believe that god has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, related , and even now still interpreted by imperfect man (Magisterium). With the additional caviot that god is inspiring the whole thing? And that this authority has only been given to the catholic church? Meanwhile other Christian theologians, those who also are passionate about Christ are left unguided to interpret the bible incorrectly?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-78645531365649767852014-06-18T14:01:37.076-06:002014-06-18T14:01:37.076-06:00The bible is not the center. Jesus is the center. ...The bible is not the center. Jesus is the center. Jesus didn't write the bible. You are right that if the bible was supposed to be the last word on all questions it is hard to understand why Jesus didn't write it or even command anyone to write it. Yet that is not it. Jesus started a church. The church is what the gates of hell can't prevail against (Mt 16:19). The church is where we go when we disagree (Mt 18:17). The bible came from the church over time. She came to realize that certain writings had a special status. That they were inspired by God to give us a picture of what Jesus said and did and taught his apostles. That did not mean that God was done leading his church into all truth. It just mean that the writings that were close in time and space to the person of Jesus form a special gift that we need to respect. Does it contain everything? Yes and no. Everything is in there at least in kernel form. Not everything is developed. <br /><br />It does require faith to believe it. Still you need to go there. Start with Jesus. Is He who He says He is? Then move to his community. Is the church of the apostles and their successors something that legitimately extends Jesus' ministry? Then look at the bible. Did the church pick the right books and discern correctly that God wants us to read them and obey themRandyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7609203224961032874.post-57099739490882444172014-06-18T10:28:31.052-06:002014-06-18T10:28:31.052-06:00How does anyone die? God is all-powerful. He could...How does anyone die? God is all-powerful. He could prevent it. He does not always do so. You people die sometimes in large bunches. Whole families die. Sometimes whole villages die. God could prevent it. He does not. Why? <br /><br />We have chosen the path of sin. Death is part of that path. He allows us to sin but He does not remove the consequences. We die. Worse yet, we kill. We do all sorts of evil things. <br /><br />So God enters this world to enact His plan of salvation. He does not create genocide. It is already there. Yes He uses it. He uses a lot of things. David cheats with Bathsheba and God uses that. He is saving a world that is sinful. He does not wait for perfect people to do it in a perfect way. He enters a brutal world that only understands the language of violence. He speaks that language. <br /><br />WWII was brutal but at least people were horrified by the violence. The holocaust was kept secret by the Nazi's because even they didn't want to defend it in public. The Allies did engage in violence. It was within the Catholic Just War Doctrine. So in that sense it was God permitted violence. I would say it was even God's will. That the Allies would have been sinning if they had not violently responded to Nazi Germany. Yet today we have different moral standards about how we treat non-combatants. We don't kill women and children as was common back then. Randyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16751516602395247675noreply@blogger.com